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Talk:Ajax-013
[[Talk:SPARTAN-013 (Ajax 013)/Archive 1|'Archive 1 of the -013 shenanigans']] Psychology Fail Wait... bipolar and schizophrenia? You can't diagnose those in the same patient. That's schizoaffective disorder. Disregarding that for a moment, there's no way someone so mentally unstable would have ever made it past basic training. And if he acquired his disabilities in the field(which I'm pretty sure can't happen, aside from some rather extreme form of PTSD that would render him non-functional), they would have kicked his ass out and marooned him on a deserted planet or something. Actually, no. If his mental state is in as constant a state of flux as the page seems to suggest, then they would have simply euthanased him a long time ago, because of how much of danger he was to everyone around him. - The Junkie of Data Apologies if I came off as hostile. My point was that he would have never made it to SPARTAN status with such crippling mental disorders unless he acquired them in the field. And if he acquired them in the field, he'd be mostly to entirely non-functional, as well as being more of a liability than an asset. As it stands, assuming he somehow made it to SPARTAN status, if he's both schizoaffective and psycho/sociopathic, as well as having enemy-embedded implants(which I'm not even going to touch), and the Corps knows this, then there's no way they'd keep him around. They'd never know when he was going to snap and kill his entire squad. "I admit im wrong then. But if Ajax has become a liability, why hasn't he been kicked out?" I believe that's the point we're trying to make. - Data Junkie *Right. Those aren't disabilities at all. *But what if he has to go on a mission alone with no chance of pick-up until the mission is complete? Bad time to have an episode. Those kind missions can take weeks or months. *Right, people who frequently imagine things and are heavily armed and armored aren't a danger to their fellows whatsoever. Ever wonder why they make you go through a psych test before entering the military? *There's a reason the military doesn't want sociopaths/bipolars. It's bad for business. *Because he can always tell who people are when he's hallucinating. *Well, the only way you can treat these is with brain surgery. I'm not talking about a full-out lobotomy, but even drugs and DNA treatment have a limit. *Again, no military wants a psychopath who walks in to a room and unloads a full magazine of ammunition in to the ceiling. If anyone did that in real life their ass would be hanging from a flagpole before you could say "Reload, Doctor Freeman." * Uh-huh. *Brain surgery? *Also known as a "liability." Being a liability extends beyond being suicidal. *Again, hallucinations. Loyalties don't count for shit if you're seeing something else. Besides, it's hard to care for something if you're a sociopath, what with you being, you know, a sociopath. *If I were any sort of officer in the military, and I don't care which one, I'd have this man hauled before a military psych panel or, if necessary, a jury, every chance I could. If you have this many issues you do not get to excuse them with a claim of intense loyalty. You can have an undying loyalty to a government or country, but that does not mean they'd give you a gun. Some people just shouldn't have one and from what I've seen, Ajax is one of them. If you are a sociopath/psychopath, you are insane and a military will not allow you to enlist. If you hallucinate frequently, no man in his right mind would hand you a loaded weapon. If you are prone to mood swings or severe bouts of depression, you do not have the ability to handle the intense stress of being a special forces operator. If you are severely anti-social then you do not make a good leader. Explain one-time treatment for some, but for most of these there is no one-time treatment outside extensive surgery. Most of them require regular drug or psychiatric treatment, things you can't get if you're on a long-term mission which, again, can last for days, weeks, or even months. Yes, you can claim that he stays near a large force that has all of these things, but suppose a Necros fleet pops out of nowhere and surrounds the planet? No drugs, no cute little psychiatrists for grizzly old Ajax. His mental state would deteriorate rapidly, almost to the point where he'd need to be keep restrained or even, as stated above, euthanized. Being useful is only good when you are able to function.}} Havent these point been proven above? Shivly :Please refrain from useless edits, you two. While i do not have issue with his mental stability, i have to disagree with the AI part. I seriously doubt that even an S-II could outthink a AI, Cortana was listed as being able to perform a trillion calculations at once. The same goes for being able to calculate slipstream space in his head is again doubtful, there's a reason why there is a navigation chip on every ship. But you know, i'm probably gonna get flamed for pointing those out. XW3 AR3 L3GION 11:02, July 3, 2010 (UTC) After reading through the article more thoroughly, I still find many faults with the article, including; *Ajax, you've repeatedly stated that he had "only a tiny, tiny bit" of deppression when Halsey found him, yet the article says that it was "severe". Which is it? **In fact, every single one of his disorders are mentioned as being "severe" in the article. If they are severe, then that would affect him, in one way or another. *How would he have time to learn 7(!) languages when he was trained all day long every day for seven years? Even if he learns quickly, there has to be time for the information to be crammed into his mind, and it's not like he would have an Mp3-player on him in-training to listen to every lesson needed to master a language. There's more to learning languages than just know how to count to ten and then think you know all you need to know. **Adding to that, even if he somehow managed to squeeze in time to learn those languages, how would he have time for "advance science, in biology, chemistry, physics, theoretical astrophysics, slipspace physics (he is capable of preforming Slipstream Space calculations in his head), science, Artificial Intelligence Psychology, Xenobiology, experimental dynamic plasma physics and advance cyborg theories", to quote the article. While they may have been taught some basics about some of those things from Deja, I doubt there'd be time for long-term advanced studies like those you're suggesting. And how could he possibly be able to make slipspace calculations in his head? It's not exactly a cake recipe. Humans can do slipspace calculations, but they need to have calculators and do some complex calculations, and even then it takes some time, which isn't very good for combat situations. Thus, we can safely assume that nobody - no matter how much of a genius he/she is - can do such calculations with his head, except for AIs. Why would hhe even have to do that to begin with? It's not like spartans are supposed to pilot ships and calculate its slipspace jumps. Spartans were taught what they needed to survive and excel in the field, not pilot ships for lazy AIs or ship captains. I'm fine with him being a genius, but geniuses have limits just as everybody else. *Like XW3 stated above, according to the article, "He can work as fast a Artificial Intelligence and with as much ability and can even outpace and out think some Dumb A.I.s". So...that means he can carry out thousands of tasks every second...with his mind? Wow. Only way for that to work would be if he's really a rampant AI living inside a human body (Leonard Church/The Alpha, anybody?). *It's stated that he shunned his teammates, rejecting them to work alone. If he did that, he wouldn't be a leader, no matter how intelligent. At most, he'd be second-in-command. A leader has to be capable of interacting with people and inspire them to follow him/her. Who in their right mind would make a loner a commander? **The fact that he's constantly going through "severe" sociopathy reinforces this even more. Who would want to work with him if he constantly shoves them aside? Not me, anyway. *In your defense, you said that he was practically completely treated from mental disorders at some point, yet your article says this; "However, his lifespan has been charted with repeated mental breakdowns and regressions, despite years of therapy and drug treatment". So, the article says that despite these treatments, he still suffered a great amount of breakdowns and regressions. That's not exactly the "stable and solid mind" you seem to think him to be. And breakdowns would affect his prowess, thus making him a liability, which is something spartans can't afford to have (thus why Soren was taken out). *Speaking of which, his only "weaknesses" seem to be him being a bad team-player (which you contradict in your statements by saying that he actually is a good team-player, thus making its mention as a weakness pointless), and a fear of Necros conversion facilities. While I like the fact that he has a fear of something he has to overcome, this "weakness" doesn't apply until after his transformation into a Revenant, after which he's "compensated" with having his strength amplified by his new implants. I know he's a spartan and thus, they don't have many weaknesses, but give him something that has an impact during his entire life. Remember that nobody's perfect. *Lastly, you need to run a spellcheck; the grammar is terrible in a lot of places. And before you begin yelling, it isn't a personal attack on your writing skill, it's a clear fact. The article in and of itself is good (even though it's occasionally hard to read due to spelling/grammar errors), and I like how it has interesting twists to it. However, there are a variety of issues that make it godmodded and unrealistic. It doesn't help when you also make statements that contradict the facts stated in the article. Either you have some editing to do, or everything you've said in your defense is in error. Your choice. Regards, Bit of an issue. *You mean mental disorders are not a problem in the brain? *Severe depression makes anyone suicidal. There's a reason the two are correlated. *M'kay. **A sociopath is not insane. A person whose idea of a wake-up alarm is a magazine of lead is insane. A person who crucifies his enemies is insane. A person who enjoys slaughtering other living beings is insane. **Again we come back to this: **Again: Severe depression generally means you're suicidal. **Again: A person who unloads a magazine of ammo in to the ceiling is not going to have an impeccable record. That's an issue right there. No military personnel, whether they be officer or enlisted, is above the law. In fact, as a special forces operator, he'd be expected to follow military regulations to an extent that would make a Marine look like a rebellious teenager. They may be more lenient on punishment for Spartans, but they do not hold them above the law. *Hmmm, yeah. I think we know how that would go, anyway.}} *"Precision and efficiency"...right. A shotgun's about as sharp and precise a weapon as a cannonball compared to an M7S or M6C/S, which is close to a scalpel. A shotgun's loud as hell, an M7S/M6CS is silent. He wouldn't use a shotgun if he was all about stealth. Not unless he wanted to draw out every enemy in the area to where he is. *'Outsmarting' is different from 'just as capable'. The wording you used in the article seemed to suggest he could think quicker than AIs, who are for all intents and purposes, intelligent supercomputers. And Halsey outsmarting AIs doesn't mean she's better than AIs (in fact, she admits that she's mentally defeated by them, much to her chagrin), she's just studied and interacted with them for much of her life (she preferred AIs for company over humans), so she knows their weaknesses and can exploit that. Plus, regarding Araquiel, she just used an override failsafe for that, just as she did on Kalmiya later. All AIs, or at least Smart ones, have that. It isn't like she rewrote his entire programming and turned him into another Cortana in a second. *The IIIs who were recruited weren't wallowing in their sadness and crying in a gutter. They were those who had moved away from that stage and wanted vengeance and showed great resolve. There were still certain parameters that had to be followed in the screening progress, they were just less picky than with the II program because augment regimens had improved substantially and because they were going to die anyway. And I also don't see how stressful physical exercises and intense schoolwork would be a superb cure for depression. More like it'd make it worse. *They were trained in mental subjects as well, yes, I never said they weren't. Only that they weren't taught to do slipspace calculations in their heads or to think as quick as AI constructs, because that is impossible. All right, I'll give you one regarding the languages, but I still don't see why he would need them all. Most of those seven could have been left in favor of, I don't know, maybe time to get better in physical combat? And Fhajad's a bad example; yes, he wrote theoretical papers on slipspace physics, but it's not like he had to do all the calculations in his head while enemies attacked him. He likely studied for months, if not years, about the subject, and he probably had calculators, examples of previous calculations and studies laid out before him, and other experts in the subject proof-reading at some point at his disposal. And yes, I've heard about such people, but making slipspace calculations is about more than knowing the square root of a number. It has to be done carefully and precisely, or you might find yourself in a black hole. *Yes, Spartans are smart, but there's a limit to intelligence, even for those with superior genetic makeup. *Well, if that's not the case, then don't write that he's just as good if not better than AIs. *On your leadership points; **So...he's rewarded for being mentally unstable? I don't see much logic there, to be honest. You don't give sweets to a kid for bullying somebody. You don't give a mentally unstable kid a leadership position for shunning his teammates. Intelligence or no. There's much more to being a leader than just knowing the square root of '531'. Academical knowledge is a plus, true, but it doesn't mean anything if he/she doesn't know how to use it to lead properly. **Again, why would he have been given the chance in the first place? Why did they go soft on him, of all people? You're simply not leader material if you shun everybody else. *Uh...no. You don't see the other spartans being constantly irritated, aggressive and show lack of remorse, do you? Is John always irritated? No. Is Fred overly aggressive? No. Does Kurt show a lack of remorse? No. I'm not saying there can't be sociopathic spartans, but far from all of them are. *Exactly, those things made Soren a liability, despite the fact that he got stronger. That makes it a good paralell to Ajax; Ajax may be extremely gifted, but he'd only be a liability if there's always a risk for him snapping (his teammates would always be wary of him, drawing away their attention from the battlefield and potentially kill them), or even if he don't snap, he's continually relying on drugs and treatments. That makes him a burden and constant source of worry for his teammates. Oh, and if anything, doesn't the fact that you take pleasure from killing make perfect signs of insanity? What's to say then that he doesn't take pleasure from killing humans too? What's saying that he doesn't want to kill his teammates? You think anybody would take that risk? *All right, thanks for clearing that out. I forget, Islam is a religion, right? **I don't know how much more plainly I can state this: I'm not talking about cutting the connections between his prefrontal cortex. I'm talking about precise surgery to remove damaged brain tissue. They do stuff like that today. **Uh-huh... ***I showed you my source, you show me yours. ***That or different rules exist 500 years from now. Different? Yes. Non-existent? No. **There is a difference between "interrogation" and "torture." Again, I cite Abu-Ghraib. **If I nuke you before you can initiate a precise assassination that will kill me and render my forces leaderless and ineffective, have I outsmarted you? **Funny how using energy (exercising) tends to help, then. Also funny how stressful environments tend not to. I would also like to see a source on the "Most psychologists believe blah blah blah," as that's a fairly impressive claim. **Working out input parameters/coordinates does not equate to actually doing them. You can program a computer to do calculations, but that doesn't mean you can do them as fast or even at all. **That's amazing, what with Spartans being so talkative and all. I'm also fairly certain they would notice that something wasn't right with him, as they tend to be masters of reading their fellow's body language. **Personal experience time: My brother has every single symptom of having diabetes, but all the tests come back negative. The doctor checks every time she sees him. And actually, yeah you can think you have your legs blown off by an IED while you're, in all reality, just fine. The mind can work wonders. **If I have to demoralize my enemies while I'm a super-unstoppable-badass soldier by nailing their wounded/dead to crosses, then I am not doing my job right. ***sigh* I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. **I don't see a single thing on your list outside the whole child soldier and "illegal drugs" part that modern Special Forces aren't. Except maybe suicide bombers, but there are probably a few examples of those. Yet I'm fairly certain they conform to at least some military regulations/discipline. **I doubt that Mary was incapable of fighting, considering she leaped out of a Pelican in low orbit and fought a platoon of ODSTs just fine. It's also quite clearly stated that she chose to retire in order to start a family (my personal feelings on the matter aside.) Also, my point with Kurt and Mary was to point out that the UNSC would be just fine with letting two perfectly capable Spartans go, and they sacrificed hundreds willingly. And if the case is that his depression was treated and cured, then you should take out the parts about how he had episodes throughout his life.}} This is getting rather tedious... *In response to the response to Actene **Agree with Maslab on this **As both I and Maslab have said, it's impossible for a human mind to do that. And what, IQ is insufficient to gauge his intelligence? That's what it was made for. **All right, another thing he's "incredibly" proficient in. I still see no sign of any weaknesses that chops off some Sue-points. Speaking of which, you should seriously run a Mary Sue-test on the character. I'd recommend This Site. In fact, I used what I could glean of the character from the article and your statements, Ajax (which, admittedly, may be flawed by a few points since you mentioned you needed to do some edits and I'm not sure exactly what future plans you have for the character), to test the character myself, and you know what it said? 87. 87. On the site, it mentions that, if the score's over 50, then you should "kill it dead". As I said, I'm bound to be wrong on some points, but even so, it would still be over 50, which means Ajax is seriously Mary Sue. Which means that a Godmod/Unrealism template is in order. But do feel free to do the test yourself and show the score if you think I'm very wrong. **Just so you know, torture isn't always an effective interrogation method. There's a big chance that the one being interrogated will just say what he/she thinks the interrogator wants to hear to stop the pain. Especially if you captured a spartan; he/she would most likely jump at the chance to misinform the enemy, even if they have to endure some torture to make it seem realistic. That's why Major Watanabe in TCP didn't use torture on the captured innie to extract information (contrary to everyone else's suspicion), and he was an ONI officer. Breaking the interrogated's psyche is likely to be much more effective, assuming you know how to do it properly; you tear apart the interogee's mind, and with it his resistance, willpower, and his ability to resist/fight back. Then, when he's helplessly crying for mommy, you extract the information. **So? He still likes it. Doesn't matter how little, he still does it. And as I said above, torture isn't as effective as you think. **He still attempted to murder a superior officer. And what did he do before that? Oh, that's right, he murdered another UNSC serviceman; an elite special ops commando at that, I might add. So, what's "Attempted murder" plus "Murder"? Hmmm...I think it equals "execution". And that's if he's very, very lucky. More likely, ONI would send assassins to shoot him dead, or maybe flush him out an airlock if they felt creative. Remember, they would've happily killed and dissected Johnson - a career marine and SPARTAN-I supersoldier - if it meant they might be able to develop a countermeasure against the Flood, and the chance was about one in a million that it'd succeed. So what's to stop them from pulling the plug on a SPARTAN-II that just murdered an elite operative and attempted to murder his direct superior, who, I might add, just destroyed an ancient artifact about to purge the galaxy of sentient life (and the horde of Flood and fleet of Covenant near it), and then shortly afterwards lead an operation that destroyed a Covenant space station and almost 500 ships - earning a hundred times bigger kill tally than all the other spartans' (ajax included) combined (counting the entire war)? They'd shoot a rogue spartan without a second thought for the safety of humanity. And all that is just assuming that Fred, Will and Kelly didn't shoot him by reflex once they saw him attacking John. **And here you go again with how he doesn't get along with people. And yet again, it shows that he isn't leader material. It doesn't matter if he can calculate a way to destroy the earth using a spoon and his own teeth and nails, if he can't work efficiently with those underneath him. Because if he can't get along well, then he won't lead effectively, and then he wouldn't have been made a leader. And Halsey and Mendez wouldn't have assigned him a team leader position if he was that way, least of all would they think that it would miraculously cure his condition; they try treat his anti-socialism, then they see if he's leader material. Not the other way around. Period. **As I said, regardless of what the ODST said/did, Ajax still killed him. The confrontation between John and the ODSTs on the Atlas was different; it was a test by ONI to determine John's prowess. He showed it after being ordered by a superior to fight, and then ONI was satisfied; they didn't care that their "guinea pigs" had died. But Ajax's situation's different; he killed the ODST without orders to do so, and on his own initiative. It doesn't matter if he did it accidentally or was goaded into doing it, it's still murder of a fellow serviceman. And mindless rage or no, you don't, I reapeat, you don't attempt to murder your superior. And the fact that it was a brother he had fought alongside makes it even worse (it'd be the equivalent of Matt going up to Baccus and beating him to death). And believe it or not, but there is another thing that makes it even worse; humanity's just retreated to Earth and are preparing to make their final stand - and then Ajax goes about killing or trying to kill some of the few elite operatives humanity has left. And you think the other spartans understand and just accept why Ajax tries to kill humanity's greatest hero? And even if they did feel sorry for him and didn't want him to leave, they would know that their opinions wouldn't matter and that, for the safety of the human race, they would have to put him down. And even if they didn't do that, ONI would. They would not reward him for it by offering him a place in Blue. And if there's any sanity whatsoever left in him, he would do more than go into a self-imposed exile. He would most likely put a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger, or turn himself in to ONI so they could do it for him, out of the shame that he had just tried to kill a brother. **And here you say again that he doesn't get along with people. And still he's put in charge! You're basically saying that it doesn't affect him in any way whatsoever, so that 'weakness' isn't a weakness. His anger management issues doesn't seem to impede his prowess either (more like it seems to make him even more powerful at some points), so that's another weakness gone. He's laden down with guilt, and how does it affect him? There doesn't seem to be any effects on that point either, so that's another made up "so-called-weakness". Oh, and he's just a leader, a pointman, and electronic/cyber warfare specialist? Bo-fucking-hoo. He's still 3-in-1; practically his own team. So why does he need his teammates again, beyond having somebody yell "oh Ajax, save me with your big shotgun, I'm being kidnapped by a bad guy so that you'll have something to do that'll require you to use a whopping 3% of your abilities"? *Response to the response to Maslab **Yes, if you know how to use "archaic line commands" like Halsey, which opens up the AI's code directory, in turn letting you find the failsafe. **You think Kat was "messed up"? She expressed a little guilt over the loss because it was a mission she had prepared, a somewhat natural reaction considering it was somebody she had worked with for years, even more so in Carter's case, I'd imagine. And Jun did develop PTSD, but he was cured of it after some therapy (the same can't be said about Ajax, who relies on a steady stream of drugs and treatments). Lucy did suffer severely from the loss of the rest of Beta, yes, and she was actually about to be discharged, but Kurt stepped in and pleaded to Parangosky to let her remain to train Gamma (contrary to ajax, who have a lot more disorders yet is never once discharged). **John had his issues, yes, but he conversely had his charms - he saved a friend from drowning (Parisa, as stated in Palace Hotel) and promised to marry her once they grew up. So it's safe to assume that he was within safe bounds. **As I said above, he was ordered to do it, and spartans have it crammed into them to follow orders since they were six. Conversely, he had also been trained to fight rebels his entire life. And why wouldn't he shoot zombies if they're attacking him? And seeing how dangerous the flood were, and having humanity's best interests in mind, why would he hesitate to shoot Johnson? And in the end, he doesn't sell out Johnson to ONI, since he felt it'd be a waste of such a good soldier. **Agree with Maslab on this. **See directly above **See above **Actually, ONI didn't necessarily rely on torture; as stated above, interrogating by attacking their psyche is likely more effective than physical torture, especially against very important prisoners (the innie leaders - who are likely among the most fanatical adherents of their cause). And I doubt interrogation would be an effective way of gathering information on the Covenant (this is assuming that he humans even understand what the aliens are trying to say); Elites, Hunters and Brutes wouldn't talk, Grunts, Jackals and Drones wouldn't know that much important things, and Prophets would be impossible to find (Legends is crap). **Again, there's a difference between being smarter than an AI and knowing how to uncover and use the AI's personal failsafe. **A source to that would be nice, just to make sure you're not pulling all that out of your arse. And I fail to see how it actually affects the argument. **Agree with Maslab **The spartans are experts at reading details; they would notice. And they wouldn't keep their mouths shut about it; somebody would rat it out to Mendez or Halsey. And even if the spartans didn't notice, Halsey would; she could tell exactly who each spartan was even if they wore full MJOLNIR armor. And if the spartans don't know he has issues, then how would they understand why he tried to murder John later? Congratulations on managing to contradict yourself for like the 100th time. **And so he used drugs. Why did you say he didn't? **It's still our duty as contributors to point out faults in your article so that you can fix them, or alternatively prove us wrong, which you haven't. **That's pretty much exactly what modern special operations groups do (except child soldier and suicide bomber parts). **But it does show that ONI is willing to pull active spartans away from the front lines to carry out other roles. We do agree, however, on the fact that Maria shouldn't be canon, but that isn't our choice. Regards, That statement in the article doesn't exactly help. What kind of slipstream space calculations? I know that from here, but I would never know it by just checking the article. *This is more a literary problem than an actual problem. So what if he still works with his team? In the even that he is separated from his team (I'll bet that will never happen *rolls eyes) he doesn't have to worry as he can just pound his way through any problem that comes up. *Understandable. But you also mentioned that they use illegal methods against fellow humans as well. There have to be rules somewhere. *Because a totally apathetic and incredibly smart Spartan wouldn't have had time to think "Golly gee, maybe there's a reason for this. John isn't that sort of person!" *I don't recall anyone ever saying you had to be friendly with people outside your unit. That's obvious. *There is a difference between being tricked in to trying to kill one of your teammates and making a decision outright. I also note that 3 doesn't try and kill 4 in self-defense. I also note that the grudge the Red team had was an attitude that was encouraged during training. I also note that Black Team didn't try and make 4 their leader afterwords. *You must have done something wrong, then. I'm barely halfway through and he's about the 90's. In other words: Kill it dead. *Instead he combats the AI with his brain. Yeah. *You missed my point. I said "synonymous with." *Source? It can go either way at this point. *I'm not. I despise many of our social norms. *Thank you for simply dismissing the article I showed you. Removing part of the frontal lobe is not equivalent to cutting the bridge between the left and right halves of the brain. *Fine. Severe depression, I would think, would be more likely to lead to suicidal thoughts. **Oh, thanks for the clarification. The way you phrased it sounded like they just planted some C4 next to your bed. **When extinction is on the menu, I would think that the gloves come off. Still, try going back to CE and shooting Keyes. *Yep. And that's going to come up. I can tell you how on the Irk if you really want me to. *It's a similar situation. Araquiel was about to begin a precise operation that would have killed Halsey, leaving the Spartans without a person to follow or get help from, but Halsey decided to essentially "nuke" him first. *Fine. But again, stress. Cures for depression are all designed to reduce stress, whilst Special Forces training is typically designed to create the most stressful environments possible. *Clarification on precisely what calculations he could do would be nice. As stated above, the article isn't exactly clear. *A severely depressed one who hallucinated would. Also, him disappearing to a psych hospital might have rung some bells. *Or your mind thinks that you lost your legs and you can't move them. Also, my brother has all the other symptoms of being diabetic, but his blood sugar is fine. Not producing insulin is not a symptom, but is diabetes. Symptoms point to a disease/illness, they are not necessarily the illness itself. *Agreed, but I don't see how this changes my earlier point. *Funny, as there are examples of all of them. *Point is that he was removed from a combat role. *So how can you say that they are possible? Granted, the example with Cole does lend your point merit. Again, it would be nice to know exactly what kind of calculations he does. It's like saying that I can do Chemistry calculations in my head. Well... I can do some. But it depends on what kind of calculations you're talking about. *I went halfway through and hit a score exceeding 90. That's hard to do. *Discuss my torture with me on the IRC. *Try telling that to people with PTSD. *Try killing Keyes at the beginning of CE. It's definitely not canonical, but I'm fairly certain that killing, or attempting to kill, a superior officer would raise some flags. Killing a couple grunts accidentally in the ring is slightly different, considering that was technically self defense. *Questionable. *4 wasn't also offered a leadership position. *I'm anti-social as well. So bleh. Also, you have a bit of contradiction. You said he is definitely anti-social, yet the quote says he's not. Or is that just Elise's opinion and not Ajax's actual condition? *Lucy was not in a combat role (not officially) and some of Ajax's conditions, which are stated in the article, would either require precise, delicate, highly advanced surgery or regular drugs. *Because he's mentally unstable? Because he has questionable ethics? *It amazes me that Halsey, who wanted mentally stable, as-close-to-perfect specimens for her experiments as possible would allow a man with these sorts of mental disorders to go through with it. *I think we've established that he got over his depression. You still contradict yourself by saying that he was mildly depressed, whilst the article clearly states he had severe depression. *You've proven that you can ignore our points time and time again. Have you proven some of ours wrong? Yes, you have. And I freely admit that because I actually have the balls to admit when I am. *And yet we have publicly known examples of all of them. *It shows that the UNSC is willing to pull a perfectly capable Spartan out of an active combat role. *Linda was anti-social. But was she incapable of being social? We may never know...}} Regarding your reply to me: *"As explained earlier, the only two stu-ish things he has is the Cypher and the fact he's closley related to the main cast". No offense, but have you even read your own character? You forgot quite a few points; **his name being related to your username (a name that's been applied to you) + the name's unusal in his place, time and/or ethnicity. **Also known by cool nickname/unique title or adress ("The Revenant", as The Guardians call him) **The character becomes a cybernetically, genetically and scientifically enhanced being + kidnapped specifically for this to happen (Happens to all spartans, though ajax undergoes enhancement procedures twice, first the S-II Program and then his turning into a Revenant) **Isn't punished by authority figures under circumstances where others would (Killing ODST and almost killing John - admittedly, spartans are given some leeway) **Antisocial Personality disorder (source: your statements confirming he has Sociopathy) **Unusually accomplished for his age, time period, place, occupation and/or social status (Repeatedly said to be incredibly intelligent, and very proficient in cyberwarfare. Note that this applies to all spartans) + unusually accomplished in more than one area (once again, very intelligent, and very skilled in cyberwarfare) **Character is among the best at some of the things he does, 1 box each - 2 boxes (cyberwarfare and CQB) **Speaks more languages than his native one, 1 box each - 7 boxes (both article and your statements confirm this) **Character succeeds in virtually anything he/she tries (applies to most spartans, though) **Character is some kind of 'chosen one' and/or part of a major prophecy (said in the Epilogue of Kanna) **Orphaned (parents died) + he witnessed said deaths (sat in the same car and thus experienced the same crash) **Character lost a close friend(s) (Mike-028 is the only one I fully know about) **You feel insulted/attacked/defensive when somebody does not like your character (probably applies to many, if not most authors' main characters) **Character's just as good or better at the jobs/skills of one or more canon characters (better hacker than Kat-B320) **The character belongs to some special/elite group (SPARTAN-IIs) **Other characters look up to him + as a leader (Bravo Company recruits, though I assume it applies to all IVs and their respective II superiors) **Takes over the job/position of a canon character at some point (in this case, John's position as main spartan character) **Gets kidnapped by bad guys (Necros) + he/she rescues himself (manages to pilot his ship back to UNSC space) **The character is vital to the resolution of your own arc/storyline (The Necros War, quite obviously since he's the main character in it) **How do you explain these (note that I don't think all these points are necessarily bad, only that they add to the Sue-score)? *Well, if you clarified in the article whether it's the calculation things that Cole had to do or not, that'd be great. Because if it is, then it's okay for Ajax to do it in his head. You do that, and I'll be satisfied on that point. *See my first point and its sub-headers. *I never said ONI didn't use physical torture, I said Watanabe didn't. And I wasn't 'complaining' about physical torture, I said it's not as reliable as one may think; I really have nothing against any kind of torture - I don't like it (and I assume most don't), but I acknowledge that it exists, is being used, and is occasionally very important, and so something that Spartans would do if they needed to. Sure, it's probably very effective against underdogs, those who just follow orders from the higher echelons (though then there's a risk that they don't know anything worthwhile even if you think they do, and if the torture goes on with the torturer still believing that the tortured is lying, he/she will, as I said, invent a piece of fiction simply to stop the pain), or those who're afraid to die. But it's likely to not work on fanatics or extremist followers. And I said spartans because of RR's Myrmidons, who're for all intents and purposes, Spartan-IVs (though clad in uglier armor :P). My point is that mental torture is more likely to be reliable than the physical equivalent, though it's a fine point. *I'd say it's more likely to be satisfaction to still be alive and/or winning than directly taking pleasure from killing the enemy. Of course, there's bound to be some exceptions. *As I said, John was ordered to fight them (there was a Sergeant who told them to duke it out in the ring). Before he was given the order, John didn't move a muscle to do anything against the ODSTs; he didn't get baited into a fight. Ajax, however, showed a lack of restraint by getting into a fight just because the ODST goaded him into doing it. Any spartan should know better than randomly getting into fights with other UNSC servicemen. But fine, if he had a friend in ONI to cover it up, I guess we can drop the ODST, albeit very reluctantly. **About his fight with John; you said earlier that Ajax had bled and fought beside them, that he was part of their family, and they would lay down their lives for him. You don't think this applies to John too? Wouldn't they (Blue Team) lay down their lives to protect John? And you think they wouldn't see Ajax's attack as a betrayal? The fact that he tries to kill a brother that he's allegedly willing to lay down his life for kinda disgusts me. And what about Ajax himself? What happened to all of his IQ that should've told him "something's not right, maybe I should check my facts first before I kill him"? But even if Blue Team didn't shoot Ajax reflexively in John's defense, and even if John didn't press charges, and even if REGAN did cover up the whole matter to the rest of humanity, logic would dictate that the spartans would at the very least shout something like "What the hell are you doing ajax! Why're you betraying us like this!?" Oh, and the spartans aren't telepathic; they may know that Ajax has mental disorders, but how're they supposed to know exactly why he's attacking John? I say the spartans should've reacted more strongly and swiftly. Also, take this into account; what if he had actually succeeded in killing John? Would they have just forgiven him then and offer him to take over Blue Team? Only difference between murder and attempted murder is that a murder is actually successful; both are done with an evil intent. ***When I said safety of humanity, I wasn't aware of REGAN's existance, since that whole part isn't mentioned in the article, so I didn't know he knew somebody who could cover it up (I admit, I didn't read the stories, sorry for that, but reading the article should be enough to know everything about the character, so you're to blame in that regard too). Imagine if the matter leaked out to the rest of ONI, though; do you honestly believe they would risk having a soldier that no longer follows their orders and goes about trying to kill people? They willingly sacrificed the crew of the UNSC Prophecy in HW: Genesis so that their prowler could remain hidden; they would've gladly and willingly dissected Johnson for a one-in-a-billion chance to produce an anti-flood measure, an enemy that they wouldn't even have been sure of whether it would return to fight them after the destruction of Alpha Halo or not. What's to stop them from flushing a supersoldier that goes into a mindless rage and tries to kill a fellow spartan. Ajax's skills doesn't matter to them unless they can control it. I haven't read Bloodline either, but didn't Prism mess with their HUDs and heads to the point where they thought each other to be Covenant? Oh, and nice touch by insulting me; very mature. I bet you'll win a lot of popularity that way. *I still say they should've tried to rid him of his sociopathy first, then consider him for a leadership position. John had to prove himself before Halsey made him leader by the way he instantly took charge of everyone and they ended up following him. Why wouldn't the same rules apply to Ajax? *It didn't seem like something he lied about. And what point would it have even been to lie about it? It's not like it would've caused John to feel worse about it than the fact that he accidentally killed some men in the boxing ring. And where did I say Ajax started hunting ODSTs and use their skulls as a belt? Please, feel free to share with the rest of the class. Nor did I ever say he was possessed by some intent to kill every ODST out there, nor every human for that matter. But if you get into a brawl, kill somebody, then hunt down and attempt murder on a superior you've trained alongside for seven years would set off some insanity alarms in ONI HQ. How're they supposed to know it's a one-time thing? How're they supposed to know that he won't try again given the chance? How would they know that he's not completely lost it once hearing of that behavior? At the very least, they would put him before a medical panel to determine his condition to ensure that it just was a one-time thing. Also, funny how you say I ignore your points, yet don't specify which points I make up in my head. If you're gonna call me braindead, stupid or anything else, at least back it up with something. And I never, ever dictated what Ajax would or wouldn't do what I commanded him to do; I said that something has to be really wrong with him if he can even live with himself after honestly trying to kill a comrade whom he's supposedly willing to kill and die for. And once again, nice touch by trying to validate your points by insulting me; that's bound to change my mind instantly. *All right, okay, good point, you win, happy? He can be leader and anti-social if you really like. And the quote is contradictive with the rest of the article and your own statements where it/you say he's very sociopathic and anti-social. Again, which is it? Can you make up your mind? Sometimes it feels like you're having a multiple personality disorder. *Right, and somehow he doesn't snap when he has "major depressive episodes in times of immense stress"? Sure, combat isn't stressful at all, why do soldiers need to have mental trianing again? And Lucy didn't keep fighting, she assisted in training, so that's a moot point - and once again, I say that Kurt had to plead with Parangosky to do even that. *Because his comrades and fellow servicemen don't also go into a mindless rage and attempt murder on a superior? *Again, John was ordered to fight. And they were instructed to get Watts out of there, and the mission might have failed if Sam didn't do that. Who ordered Ajax to kill John? Who ordered him to kill the ODST? *Right, you proved me wrong there on the Covenant prisoner point, good one. Still, I repeat that physical torture isn't as reliable as it sounds, and that many of the Covenant don't care about pain. Then again, there's black sheep in every race, and the humans were lucky to capture a talkative one. *That is, until he tries to kill John. Oh my god, I'm so nuts to even consider the thought that maybe the spartans wouldn't appreciate that Ajax did that, please ban me for my stupidity. *Er, does it matter if that problem is in your expanded universe? He still has to rely on drugs at one point. *You have proven us wrong in some, if not many regards, yes. Am I willing to admit that? Yes. Are you willing to admit when you're wrong? Mostly not. Instead you insult my intelligence. There's no reason this can't be done in a courteous manner. If I've expressed some uncivil lines, then I apologize for those; it's not my intention to turn this into a brawl. I do wonder why you don't question Maslab's intelligence though; not that I want you to, but we both argue against you, yet I'm the only one you choose to insult. I'd hate to think that it's just because he's an admin and I'm not. *Yes, we can agree on that Spartans do the illegal things other special forces do, but like those, Spartans also have to always follow orders; basically, in order to break laws, they need orders to "justify" breaking those laws. *It shows that ONI are willing to reassign fully capable spartans into non-combat roles. *It was an example. Besides, Matt and Baccus actually wuv each other, even though they don't show it on the internet =P *As I said above, you proved me wrong on the "anti-social = bad leader" part. Now, how about we stop insulting each other so that this doesn't turn into an unnecessary brawl? PS: Regarding Team Black, they're not exactly like John, Fred and Co. They decided to team up with a drone and later with other Covenant (first Two with Hopalong, and then One with lunatic elite nr 1). So, their decisions and standards don't really have much impact on Ajax's situation; because in the same story, Red Team causes One to lose her eye because of her "unspartan behavior", IE her relationship with Three. Imagine what they would've done if she had tried to kill John. Now, I'm not saying John and the rest of Blue Team are as aggressive as those Red Team fellows, but they are definetly more strict with following orders and are more disciplined than the members of Black. Even if Ajax's team are a little like Black too, it doesn't matter, because John and Co. are not, and it was they who noticed Ajax trying to kill John. Jesus. I go out of town for a week, and there's already too much shit for me to read. You people move fast. Now, let's break things down here. To my knowledge, the UNSC is based on current (American, I believe) military branches. Already the military refuses to work with known psycho/sociopaths, despite the fact that it's a decent way to get rid of those people. I suppose one could assume that in the future they're less stringent about such things, especially when at war with five or six other species at the same time. We're also going to ignore the complete bullshit about how 013's mental state changes. That still leaves "bipolar hypomanic depression, hallucinogenic episodes" and "repeated mental breakdowns and regressions, despite years of therapy and drug treatment", both of which are lifted directly from the article. From what I've gathered from the article, which I'll admit to skimming most of except for the first three or four sections in his history, he didn't enter the program with these problems, meaning that he acquired them during active duty, meaning we can likely throw in a bit of PTSD as well. All in all, even without the assumed PTSD, this man sounds like a liability. I've shown this article to a few of my friends and my grandfather, all of whom are in or retired from the military, and they all agree on one point: They wouldn't want this man near their unit, much less in it. He sounds like his mental state is horribly unreliable, and you never know when he's going to have some kind of episode that puts both himself and his unit in danger. If this isn't the case, then that needs to be made more clear in the article. Now if he does suffer from PTSD like I suggested, then that would certainly explain the presence of most of his mental disorders. However, PTSD also comes with a whole other slew of problems such as Shell-Shock (not technically part of PTD, but usually accompanies it in soldiers), flashbacks when exposed to proper stimuli, severe depression to the point of self-mutilation, insomnia, and nightmares, all of which "cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" by the very definition of PTSD. Tl;dr : The man is too unstable as-is for the military to keep him around. Since you can't just discharge a potentially psychotic super-soldier, they'd either send him on a suicide mission that's guaranteed to kill him, kill him themselves, or maroon him on some feral jungle planet. The first and third options could even provide interesting story material. Alternatively, you could clean him up, make him a little less unstable, and remove the redundancies in the first line of the "Mental State" section. Data Junkie 07:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Oh, I never said that they've never discharged SPARTANs, just that they wouldn't discharge one who presented a major risk to himself and those around him. Of course, the entire concept of letting your super-soldiers that you kidnapped as children and experimented on in secret just go is slightly ridiculous to me. But meh, 'tis canon, so it can't be argued with. --Data Junkie 19:57, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Refs Christ.....--Den fryktedehodet 19:11, July 5, 2010 (UTC)